News & Events

Sen Interview with Paul Horvath 3 February 2010
PH = Paul Horvath                          
MF: Matt Finnis
DH = Daniel Harford

MF:        The longer it drags on the more behind the eight ball you are and obviously particularly when you go to a new club you in terms of being able to I guess to  instill yourself as part of the rules and the culture and the way in which the club wants to go about its business particularly at a club like St Kilda which is you know on the verge of the ultimate success
DH:        That was the voice of Matt Finnis CEO of the AFL PA on ah Andrew Lovett being behind the 8 ball at the saints no doubt about that , with morning glory this morning want to talk about this St Kilda have released a statement you would have heard I am querying a couple of things in that statement and to help me out and sort out exactly what is going on in this situation is Paul Horvath the leading Sportslawyer and director of Sportslawyer also a member of the AFL Arbitration panel doesn’t effect the grievance panel which is good for him and good for us so we can talk to him about it G’day Paul
PH:G’day Daniel how are you going
DH:        I’m pretty well mate this is a real sticky one I would imagine from the AFL PA’s point of view because the charter of the AFL PA initially is to look after the  welfare of its constituant’s the AFL players
PH:Hmmm
DH:        Now in this case there seems to be a real logger heads between Andrew Lovett and the players at St Kilda everything we hear out of St Kilda is that the players don’t want him there, but is he entitled to be there
PH: Ah look in terms of the grievance procedure that’s in place um it would  seem that coming from a legal perspective to answer your question I guess it is a core term of his contract that he is entitled to play and train ah with the players because he is obviously if you lose that ability to train with the players you lose your skill which is your most important tool of the trade
DH: hmm
PH: so under the contract he looks like he’s saying I’ve got a grievance like in my view my contract has been breached in some way as best i can understand the situation so thats the grievance that he then takes back to the club and as Adrian Anderson indicated on um on one of the earlier programs there’s a number of steps to follow um in terms of discussions that have to take place um both before a grievance tribunal is convened to decide the matter um and my understanding of the um um collective bargaining agreement is that even if you wanted to commence legal proceedings you must under the um grievance procedure you have to have exhausted that process just before you can commence legal proceedings
DH: Yep and that’s why hes done it is to get that out of the way;
PH: That’s rights
DH: A formality
PH: That’s right um well i mean not necessarily to get it out of the way I suppose he is as much as anyone might well hope that that resolves the matter because um because it is very expensive, um it is very drawn out it is very stressful um to go through legal processes and so on including possibly the grievance tribunal um and that if the parties can come together and have some discussions um and that’s always open  including um when once the grievance tribunal commences and or is engaged there’s ah as I understand the rules is ability for the parties to meet and get together and negotiate before ah you have to go before a panel who has to impose their decision on parties so I guess it seems to me that certainly from comments made by Matt Finess in today’s age it seems that they are seeking to engage in discussions and that might well assist the process of one hopes that it will
DH:        Well that’s the perfect outcome for this St Kilda says in their press release of today that not sure if you’ve seen this St Kilda confirms that it is an will be complying with its obligations under the CBA
PH: hmmm
DH:        what is this is that just does that say basically that we’ve had the meeting on the grievance procedure that’s in the CBA and that’s all they’ve done is that what they are referring to there or were they referring to the fact that they have stood him down indefinitely pending ah police decision whether or not to charge him;
PH: Daniel I think they are referring to there to um the meeting that they would have held um and there’s different levels of meeting i think that the first level is player and football manager then it might be um ah player and agent and ah club representative and then um it goes to players association representative and the club and then it goes to  um CEO of the players associations and Adrian Anderson on behalf of the AFL to exhaust all of those processes so there sort of seems to be um about three or four steps before you go to a formal grievance tribunal hearing
DH: Yep
PH: And so I suppose one way to look at it is that maybe um St Kilda is saying that we’ve ticked that first box and we’re complying with our requirements to meet with these people that is um Mr Lovett and his representatives um you know um ah you never know what can come out of those discussions
DH:        Ah hypothetically unofficially because um nothings been put into concrete yet he’s become hes looking like more and more damaged goods Andrew Lovett if no charges are laid and St Kilda wants to terminate his contract what grounds does he have does he have to get paid out
PH: (pause) Whoa Ah that’s a tough one um I guess um any contract um any contract dispute looks at the damage, damages sorry which is the monetary loss that a person suffers if a contract has been breached
DH: yep
PH: and I guess um one of the things that you’re raising is if or when he might reach a point of no return by failing to be um able to train with the club and so on and I guess that um one thing that was um turning over in my mind there might be a simple answer to it is  um why he might not be able to train even as some sort of a base with the VFL affiliate of St Kilda and that might be going on at the moment
DH:        which has been seen at the other clubs the Carlton boys more recently Walker, Hoolahan and Betts trained with ah Northern bullants instead of Carlton
PH: yes and I guess in that sense just trying to maintain at least some level of football fitness in him with a view to keeping the options open for the future um so I guess look em as i say ah i mean the papers reporting like that he is on like a million dollar contract and the theoretically um if he’s entire  three years is um cancelled and brought about solely by a breach of St Kilda well then that obviously he will be looking for substantial damage damages but that said its a long way to go before you can say that St Kilda are guilty of any wrong doing in what they’ve done um and er i suppose before you know all the facts as to ah the precise reasons why St Kilda stood him down ah and  whether they had a proper basis for doing that um ah there is a number of you know for example um workplace laws that apply in those situations and um and ah we don’t necessarily know all of the reasons why St Kilda have been that so I suppose that you need to work through all of those matters first before you can come out of the other end and say that um And Andrew Lovett has had the wrong thing done by him and that he can no longer be with the this club and so on and obviously you’ve got other issues
DH: Hmm
PH: And you know it it would take some time to transfer to another club and all that sort of thing but um there is a number of issues outstanding including the police investigation I guess we have to wait um until  we see ah what outcome can come from those sort of steps and process as well
DH:        What about from the AFL PA ‘s point of view this is a really delicate issue I can imagine obviously horrible allegations the charges as I said at the start to look after all players
PH: Hmm
DH:  It seems that as in this case we’ve got the St Kilda footy Club players and Andrew Lovett who do they support what do they do
PH: Um I I think its um its a situation that they’re um  are well skilled to deal with and I think of basic thing such as um marketing rights and so on and um the collective bargaining agreement I mean they are bargaining on behalf of the ah people at the high end of the scale in terms of your Gary Ablett’s and your Buddy Franklins and so on and in terms of their rights under the collective terms agreement as well as the rookies that are coming in so they are able to balance all of those different interests when they’re negotiating those things I think that they are well placed to balance a number of interests and i think that ah all I take at the moment from what as I understand of the situation is that firstly the um um it is a common um um thing that a lawyer looks into um er in ah a general employment situation whether natural justice has been followed and that’s a concern that’s been raised um by the players association um and I guess until you know the information as to if that’s been followed if it hasn’t been followed then the law says that people are entitled to have natural justice followed um and err and um so er also because of the lack of information suggested um that’s been forthcoming from club that’s made getting a proper understanding of the situation difficult so i guess um hopefully um once dialogue commences matters can become clearer and it will help them to balance out the different interests
DH:        Its obviously a very complicated issue I do appreciate your time Paul, just before we let you go do the Saints players have a right not to want him back CBA if that’s the case then if they’re not happy with him around the club for these allegations and the picture that tarnishes the brush that they get tarnished with as a result do they have a right not to want him back?
PH: Um
DH: UnderThe CBA
PH:         Um I don’t know the CBA in that level of detail but from the time that I’ve spent going around the document I wouldn’t ah I am not aware of any um specific clauses that give that type of right um I would’ve thought that it is some sort of a general grievance I suppose if they wanted to raise as a group in some fashion it would go along those lines but no I can’t think of a specific clause that says that players can as a group seek to exclude an  individual player
DH:        Very very complicated it is interesting as well and um I am sure we will hear much more about it as more information comes to hand we really appreciate your time Paul Thank you very much
PH:         Pleasure Daniel

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